Standard preliminary sketches update

[nanfan]

Hi folks,  Sorry to take so long on this but here they are (and it's a rush job so keep that in mind...lol) for your comments.  I found that most of the feather samples were darker than I imagined for the roo and lighter than I would have thought for the hens.  These colored pics depict that so let me hear your comments.  I need to do a few minor touchups on the combs, beaks, etc. and will get that done this afternoon.  Thanks, Charlie

Up Dated:  Hope someone agrees with me but this is what I'd like my nankin to look like.

[Pip]

Charlie,

I know that you said you prefer a darker Nankin, but the color that I see that you have come up with is so dark overall for both sexes that I believe it is way beyond what the Standard calls for. I took part in the National Meet in Indianapolis two years ago in which Nankins from all parts of the country were shown
and none of them remotely approached the dark colors that you depict. Hackles and saddles are a required red-orange in males, not the mahogany represented in your illustrations. If the computer generated color is not the overall dark color that the illustrations apparently represent, then I am off base and owe you an apology, otherwise I would suggest several shades lighter on both sexes. Just my opinion.

                                                                                                                                     Don

[Falling Tree Farm]

Thanks for posting the colored pictures.  I have a few first reactions: the hen is supposed to have a blob of black at the end of each tail feather surrounded by a edge of chestnut rather than an all black tail.  The hackle on the cock should be more orange/yellow and the saddle should match.  The hens hackle needs to be a shade darker too.  Howard

[Mary Ann Harley]

Charlie,

You are doing a wonderful job for the NCA & we APPRECIATE it so much.  Please do not get discouraged with us as we want the best possible type and color on the drawings.  I know that you are busy and have to take time out of your schedule to help us.  When you have the time & only when you have the time could you take these comments into consideration.  Thanks so much for your efforts.

Mary Ann

[Rog]

   Not a great picture but I think this cock has decent Nankin color for the male. So folks lets all post some pictures of cocks and hens . Chestnut is a hard color to define. Lot`s of different shades of chestnut. The color of the Nankin I feel will never fit everybodys idea of chestnut. But we need a majority of the NCA members to agree on a color. And live with it. As far as Charlie`s sketch of type , I like it , really good . So lets vote on that for now. Besides posting pictures of birds here send some pictures to Charlie. The color may be better than when you post it here. And Charlie as Mary Ann said , Thank You , for the time and effort you are putting into this project .   Just me .   Rog

[Pip]

Charlie,
It appears that I am your harshest critic regarding the color illustrations that you have presented and for that I would apologize if I intended it to be personal. I am trying to reflect what I read in the ABA Standard, not what I feel are my own color preferences. The important work that you are doing is for the present and more importantly, for future Nankin breeders like ourselves. The time and energy you have put forth is certainly appreciated no more than by myself, but would be a waste if we do not attempt to get it right this time.
With these thoughts in mind, I hope that you can proceed in spite of what could be perceived as nit-picking on my part. It's not as though we've not been through this process before and I hope that my critical remarks will not prevent you reaching your goals. Just tell me to go to hell and keep on painting.

                                                                                                                               Don

[nanfan]

Since the viewing tally has not changed in a couple of days, I am thinking no one is aware that the paintings have been replaced on my original post. When modifying a post, it doesn't show up as "new".   Please take a look and see what you think.  They have been lightened considerably and I hope they show up as intended over the internet.  I think this is what I want my nankins to look like and hope at least some of you agree.  I compared the actual paintings with the ones posted on my screen as to color and they are a good deal darker on here than the originals so keep that in mind when viewing and determining if the colors are close.  Thanks, Charlie

[Rog]

  Charlie   I think you are getting closer to the color. Not quite there yet but closer. Now Don , who is nit-picking. Me. This color thing is going to be hard to do. To many shades of chestnut. There are not enough folks breeding Nankins to get a consensus of what the color should be. Yes I think the English standard is closer. But there is one thing everybody needs to remember. There is already a ABA standard for Nankins. Right or wrong it will hard to change. One good thing I see going on with the Nankin Club is : So far we can agree to disagree .  And thats a big plus .  Just me.    Rog

[Falling Tree Farm]

Dear Charlie;
You are doing so much for the fancy and we are all very appreciative! Nevertheless in the interest of getting the best possible representation of the ideal Nankin I keep looking at the newly posted paintings and I am afraid I still have some issues. 
I think the black blob in the hens tail should be anywhere from 50% to 100% larger and the color of the tail feathers below the blob should be the same color as the wing bay.  The same with the tail coverts that rest on the main tail feathers.  And the wing bay should be about the same shade as the hens hackle.
On the Cockerel I think the darkest 'chestnut' on the body-really it is a rich, deep red is the males wing bow.  Also I still think the hackle and saddle should be lighter with more yellow/orange in the color.
I know this is a lot of work and we are involved in a very lengthy process, please take your time.  Better to get it right then soon.
What do all you other folks think???  Howard

[Pip]

Charlie,

The Nankin Standard seems to have taken a beating lately and although it is admittedly not perfect, it is all we have at the moment. I really do not understand all of the muddy colors and think that a  study of the Standard required colors when contrasted with those presented here will show that what is represented is clearly at odds with the Nankin Standard. The Nankins represented here are still too dark, especially the males. I am sure that you are tired of my nagging on the subject, so having said my piece, will say no more. Thank you for your time, hard work and mostly, for putting up with me.

Don

[nanfan]

Don, I don't know where you are at this point on the publication of the Quarterly but can you use these in black and white and get a consensus on the type only?  In the meantime, I'll get back to the color fix as soon as I am able.  From the feedback lately, I am assuming that the roo needs a lighter hackle and saddle but is the wing bay about right?  Also, the hen needs to be lightened overall and the tail to match the body with larger black blobs at the ends, laced over the ends with light chestnut.  We'll all get it right eventually. Thanks,  Charlie

[Pip]

Charlie,

Thanks for the quick reply and so accepting of my constant complaining about color. I'll go ahead as per your suggestion to include the line drawings in the upcoming issue of the Nankin Quarterly. We cannot assume that the entire membership is aware of the fact that progress is being made in as much as some no doubt haven't internet access to this site. The site incidentally, has been like gold in this process and we are extremely fortunate to have it. Thanks again for your continued efforts for all of us.

Don

[Pip]

Charlie,

Oops! I can see no difference between the color of the wing bay, hackle and saddle- they all appear to be a muddy, dark brown. Even the comb, face, lobes and wattles are not bright red and the shanks closer to black than bluish slate. It's as though the entire bird is being viewed from behind a dark curtain. I do hope that this is a help, not just a constant, critical harang.

Don

[nanfan]

Don, I think maybe your monitor is darkening the colors some from your description of what you are seeing.  Hopefully, you have received the pics that I sent you by now and can more easily see the colors.  They may appear differently than on this forum.  Let me know what you think when you get the prints.  Thanks, Charlie

[Pip]

Charlie,

Your color prints arrived today and as you indicated, they are not as dark as they appear here on the computer monitor, but only marginally. The females are much better than the males- about two shades lighter overall would help. The males continue to be a muddy brown where the Standard calls for Orange-red in hackle and saddle. If you will match the breast color of the females two shades lighter to the male, you'll be close to Standard, I believe. None have the bright red combs, faces, and wattles called for. The Nankin male has a bright, flashy hackle and saddle, not the dull, flat, muddy brown that is presented. What ever  you are using to darken and deaden the color is not working for you. Lighten up!
Thanks for sending your work along and I do hope all of this complaining will help. I hope to have the Quarterly out this week as it will contain your line sketches as we agreed upon and as an important  step toward a workable set of Standard illustrations. Hang in there, Charlie!

Don