Black/Chocolate Nankins

[northumbriabantams]

Which section on this site do you download pictures. Still quite interested in the discussion and how it has developed. It still amazes me how you totally dismiss the creation of a Rosecomb Nankin by man, not nature, from the single comb type, which is still in my viewnot a true Nankin, as the original breed type has been altered by crossing with another breed to produce a mongrel Rosecomb version. Adding a colour(s) to a breed is far more acceptable to me than to alter the appearance of the birds original type. The same is true to the size. My Nankins Cocks are no more than 9-10"" when proud the hens far smaller. I have seen specimens that claim to be Nankins but are more like Hampshire reds in size. Why not try to introduce a true Nankin into the USA and breed out the Rosecomb to bring your Nankins back to the true type, or are the laws like ours where eggs should not be imported from another country.

[Falling Tree Farm]

Please do show us photos of 9" Nankins cocks. 

[Rog]

Which section on this site do you download pictures. Still quite interested in the discussion and how it has developed. It still amazes me how you totally dismiss the creation of a Rosecomb Nankin by man, not nature, from the single comb type, which is still in my viewnot a true Nankin, as the original breed type has been altered by crossing with another breed to produce a mongrel Rosecomb version. Adding a colour(s) to a breed is far more acceptable to me than to alter the appearance of the birds original type. The same is true to the size. My Nankins Cocks are no more than 9-10"" when proud the hens far smaller. I have seen specimens that claim to be Nankins but are more like Hampshire reds in size. Why not try to introduce a true Nankin into the USA and breed out the Rosecomb to bring your Nankins back to the true type, or are the laws like ours where eggs should not be imported from another country.

      Mr Cooper  I have been to your website. Not many pictures of Nankins that I saw.  http://www.bantamsforsale.co.uk/   Here it is. Go look for yourself. I see the Chocolate seems to be a favorite of yours. Why , because it sells good in the UK ?  To be quite honest with you sir , I do not see the need for an other color of Nankins at the present time. You just seem to me to just want to sell a new color for money that are not Nankins. Good luck with that. Sir I usually do not say much about what people post but to tell you the truth you just pissed me off. You seem to have a problem with the truth. Good luck with the Chocolate Nankins. Just me. Nobody else.  Rog

[northumbriabantams]

yes I do breed and sell my birds why not scrape a living out of a passion, most people would do the same given the opportunity. Like everyone else in the world unfortunately you need money to keep a roof over your head, put food on the table and feed my birds. If I was interested in the money for introducing colours, the one breed I would not have used is the Nankin. It is worthless in monetary terms buff, chocolate, or pink. I breed Nankins because they are my favorite & friendliest bantam and I have a passion for them, so do not insult me with this monetary statement. Regarding the chocolate orpingtons, they may have made money at one time but they have had their day, I keep 6 different colours so what. I have three colours of Dutch, two of Rosecomb, four of Wyandotte, so what. I keep breeds for their personallity, if they are vicious they are culled this is not a production line it is a way of getting pleasure out of life after all we are only here once, allegedly.

[northumbriabantams]

I cannot download pictures as the site will not allow it as they are 1.96mb and I do not know how to reduce their size. I have posted extra pictures on my website if you want to view them. I will leave them there for a week.

Rog your right there arn't many pictures of Nankins but there is only one picture of each of my other breeds or colour variation as well. The website is under construction anyway and some of the breeds do not even have pictures up yet & before I get accused of getting people onto my website I am only posting these extras as you have asked to see pictures of my Nankins

[Rog]

    Mr. Cooper   Just one question for you. If as you have stated the rosecomb Nankin is a mutt and mongrel why is it that van Ginks painting is a  " ROSECOMB " ?   Rog

[northumbriabantams]

Maybe I have been a bit strong with my wording but i'm sure I didn't call it a mutt, whoever is right it doesn't really matter at the end of the day until it is proved either way (and does anyone care anyway) which is a true type of Nankin the most important aspect is the welfare of the birds whatever breed or colour. I can't see the sense in pissing you off any further so I will continue with my breeding and not bother you any more. Who knows in years to come it may or not get accepted. I really don't care either way I am doing this for my own enjoyment not from a monetary aspect

[Falling Tree Farm]

How does one reach your website??

[Rog]

 http://www.bantamsforsale.co.uk/  Go here Howard. Mr Cooper  Don`t worry about me being pissed off. I get over it sooner or later. Sometimes. If not I can still live with it. This is a "quote" from one of your posts . "as the original breed type has been altered by crossing with another breed to produce a mongrel Rosecomb version. "    Another quote from you "Adding a colour(s) to a breed is far more acceptable to me than to alter the appearance of the birds original type. "  If I may ask , how do you do that with out outcrossing to another breed ? Just curious and interested to hear what your answer is. If you want to answer. If not have a good day and good luck with the chocolate Nankins.  Rog

[northumbriabantams]

The Nankin may have been crossed over the years and the probability is that it was a single comb bird  and either by nature or by man has developed a type that has resulted in a Rosecomb version. Nature tells us that the single comb bird does not fair well in the northern cold atmosphere and that the rosecomb is a better suited to the harsh frosty environment this version has developed by chance or by crossing with another breed. I have never had an issue with crossbreeding whatsoever, as I would be hipocritical and am doing it with various breeds as many have done before me. If not we would not have the sebright, Orpington and the colour variation in most breeds, after all a lot of the Orpington and wyndotte colours have been achieved by crossbreeding with each other to achieve the desired colours. However with crossbreeding you cannot have it both ways, you object to colours but will not accept the history of the breed. I know you feel that the USA rosecomb Nankin is a true type but as a breed that has existed possibly 1000's of years long before it was ever introduced into the UK or USA, probability tells us that from it's natural environment it's counterparts the Japanese, Serama and numerous breeds from that part of Asia, it would be that a Nankin was single comb because of the weather in the region. I have no objection on Nankins combs whatsoever but I do have difficulty accepting your blinkered view that the USA Nankin is true to type and that past history of the breed is a that Nankin was infact a rosecomb not a single comb version. It is not what nature would have intended from it's natural environment in Asia. I have only used the argument regarding combs and true type that as I have stated above that you cannot have it both ways in objecting to change that may have already happened decades ago or even hundred's of years ago.

[Falling Tree Farm]

Please remember that the Nankin is a domesticated chicken and has a standard that defines it.  All chickens of any sort were developed from wild red or possibly green jungle fowl.  All the different varieties of chickens were developed by mankind.  There are no wild Wyandottes or Nankins and never was.  But at a certain point in a breed's development a standard is established and it is the fanciers responsibility to breed to that standard.
If you want to raise non-standard fowl that is fine, but if you are raising Nankins it must be to the standard that has been established.  If you want to change the standard you can take that route by going through a well established process that varies from organization to organization and country to country.  The Nankin is what the standard says it is-that's what it means to say we raise standard bred fowl.  You can breed whatever you want but if it does not resemble the established Nankin standard-it is not a Nankin.

[Rog]

  Well put Howard.   Rog

[northumbriabantams]

I am not arguing with standards but each new colour that has been accepted over the years has been because it is a "true type" in it's size, and it's features are of the original standards stated for it's breed. If I am not able to produce the standard, the birds will never be recognized as true to type and it does not deserve to be, however if I am successful and I am talking generations down the the line here, then the chances of it being recognized are minimal if any as the Nankin in the UK is not a popular choice with poultry keepers. If you take the Chocolate Wyandotte as an example, this colour vatiation is true to type but is not recognized by the poultry club of the UK yet is a sought after colour.

My theory for trying to introducing a new colour is based on my own experience over the years, that if you buy a breed that you like you want as many, or all the colours of that breed. So if people buy a Chocolate, Black or Pink Nankin they will also want the Buff. Whatever the senario if I am able to make the Nankin popular and a bird of choice for the many not just the few then I have contributed to the breeds increase in popularity and hopefully been a small contributor in securing it's future.

[Mousy]

Okay, sorry I’ve been quiet run up to Crufts (UK equivalent of Westminster).
I’d suggest that pictures would go under pictures.
Before the current “re-discovery” of in the 1960’s. References from the 1850’s through to the 1920’s. All mentioned both rosecomb and single comb. Although which is the preferred option seems to change from on author to the next. I don’t know about pre-1850’s if anyone’s got any references I’d love to know about them one way or the other. So the rosecomb and single comb both existed it’s  for a very long time.  For all I know at the moment it may have always existed, but I don’t really know. Love to if anyone has the info. However, how long does a ‘type’ have to be around before it is classed as the ‘original type’?
If the rosecomb, had not been recreated and you where proposing to do it. I would still be arguing that we need to get the breed better established and off the critical lists before monkeying around. But that is my personal opinion.
Out of interested how much do your 9-10” cocks weigh? I know mine are considered to be oversized. I have been thinking about weighing them to see what they weigh, because although the standard doesn’t give any measureable size guidelines it does weight.
As for the USA needing to import true Nankins, I’m waiting to read Mark Fields book on Nankins as hopefully this will give me some answers, but I don’t know when Nankins were first introduced into the USA. They seem to certainly been around in the 1850’s and I don’t know if they have been in the USA consistently from that time to current time or not. But that is certainly as far back as references I can find in the UK. What I am more concerned about and I’ve not yet fully got the picture to understand how this came about again I’m hoping Mark Fields book will help is the difference in breed standards between countries.  As this will lead to a splitting and dilution of type in the long run, plus future arguments. ( Still trying to correct this problem that arose in my dog breed 70 years ago.)
Eggs can be imported from the UK to the USA, but it is not easy or cheap and there is one hell of a lot of red tape.
By the way, on the subject of Nankins and money even in 1852 a Nankin was worth 1/6th the value of a silver or gold laced! And this despite it being widely acknowledged to be one of them most useful of bantams in the time frame.
It is an interesting peice of logic about the theory that Nankins being from Asia and therefore single combed due to the environment. I know that rosecombs are more suitable for colder climates due to them being less susseptiable to frost bite. But is there anything about the rosecomb that would make it unsuitable for hotter climates? (and therefore unlikely to occur naturally in Asia countries, which would help to back up the logic of the arguement.)
Don’t forget that you can get sub-zero temperatures in parts of Asia. For example in China.
The unique problem with introducing another colour to Nankins still extists though in that the Nankin is a specific colour for a breed that, that colour variation became knows by it’s colour description. It is possible that the breed of bantam had another colour however it was not called Nankin it was called by that colour of Partridge. As in the Partridge Bantam. Now I’m not sure about this and it is a question I’ve put to the rare poultry society so I’m waiting for more knowledgeable poultry heads than I to come back to me.  Bantams during that time did seem to be refered to by colour (So you had the Yellow or Nankin Bantam, the Game Bantam, the Spangled Bantam, the Sebright Bantam, the Partridge Bantam, the Black Bantam, and the White Bantam) and part of me wanders if the Nankin hadn’t got a querky name for it’s colour of Nankin would it still exist today as the Yellow Bantam? (I.e. is the name help keep the breed distinct.) However, Nankin was definitely used for a time (it’s almost as if it was a for a period the fashionable term to refer to a colour with, but I’m not a linguist).  I’ve found examples of a colour descriptions of moths and plants using Nankin for the colour. Also there was a colour in the Silkie Bantams refered to as Nankin in the last half of the 1800’s.  So my question still stands of if you change the colour of a Nankin is it still a Nankin?


Mousy.

[nankin3]

 Mousy,
 According to Mark Fields book there is no clear evidence that the Nankin existed in the US before 1963 when John Dempsey hatched his 6 eggs. There is some references to Nankin birds from earlier periods but were thought to be references to the color and not to the the actual bird we know. Mr. Dempsey's first birds were large I think it stated around 41ozs. when grown. His first generation was outcrossed with a Black Rosecomb hen to get them smaller.And then the smaller birds from this pairing were used to grow his flock. If I am incorrect in this please someone with more knowledge in the matter correct me.
 And I agree with your thoughts on the color anything else is just a "black,pink,purple etc." bantam and not a true Nankin and never will be.
Danny