Black/Chocolate Nankins

[nankin3]

I would have to agree with many of the other members opinion on this matter there is no place for a another color or type at this point in time. The birds are still far to scarce to consider such an endeavor and in my opinion they would never truly be a Nankin but a cheap imitation of the real thing that is a passing fad. And can only hurt a breed that so many people have so worked hard to preserve.
Danny

Mousy: I think your checklist was a very good.

[northumbriabantams]

The Nankin has been a British import since we believe the 16th century, the USA has had it only for 50 years. There is room for additional colours in all breeds after all the Nankin was never Buff it was yellow or lemon in colour. The USA Nankin has been distorted from the original Nankin anyway because it is rosecomb so infact not a true Nankin and is a hybrid. If everyone is so interested in getting the type true then breed out the Rosecomb and try to get it's original colour back. It is amazing that people like me who has spend 30 years breeding & 25 years breeding & developing the Nankin that by mistake or I feel goodfortune has come up with a new colour but is being lambasted as if I were an ametuer. Do you not think that you should wait to see the end results before you criticise. Makes me laugh as I had an email from the USA wishing they had the available breeds and colours we have and I can see the reasons you do not stop living in the middle ages.

[Rog]

Ah Dave  Now who`s Knickers are getting bunched up. You say you have spent 25 years breeding and developing the Nankin. Pray tell what birds did you use in developing your Nankins. We would be very interested in hearing what you did. Where your original Nankins are from? Nobody that I saw lambasted you for being an ametuer. You just mentioned this. It seems you have no pictures to post. And from several of the articles about Nankins the rosecomb was mentioned and Buff.  It does seem that the US has taken on the Nankin project and increased the numbers and breeders here. Good luck with your chocolate birds.   Rog

[Mousy]

I'm not sure if there weren't Nankins in the USA earlier than 50 years ago or not. I'm not sure enough of my facts to really comment on that. My impression is that the majority of the Nankins in the USA if not all may have stemed from 6 birds imported from the UK. I don't know if those birds where all single combed or rosecombed. Perhap someone with greater knowledge to the Nankin histry in the USA can clarify those points for us?

I know that I still have huge gaps in my knowledge about Nankin so perhaps Dave you can clarify when the Nankin flock on the Sussex farm was found in the 1960's where they all single combs or where there rose combs or not? It's a question I'd like to put to Fred Hams at some point if I ever get chance. From the reading I've done I know that Brian Sands did a lot of work on the Rosecomb, but what I don't know is if these was with existing Nankin stock or by crosses outside of the breed. Again he's someone I'd dearly love to talk to at some point. Perhaps from your more experienced stand point you could clarify these points for me. I'm know that I'm an absolute beginner when it come to the breed so I do appologise if you think I've lambasted you in any way it was not my intention. You asked for an opinion so one was offered. But it is at the end of a day only an opinion.

I would dearly like to see pictures of your Nankins as I am on the look out for breeding stock that may help address some of the problems I have in my Nankins.

By the way, is not possible that the yellow and buff colour discriptions are not people in the past using different terminologies to discribe the same colour?

FROM ‘OUR LETTER BOX.’18TH OCTOBER 1864

POINTS IN NANKIN BANTAMS (A Poultry Fancier).—The hens should be buff coloured all over, save the tail feathers, and a darker shade on the hackle. The cocks should be red all over, except the tail; they should have blue legs, and be very small.

I'd also be very interested to know why you think the rosecomb is not part of the true nankin?

Here is one of my references that makes me think what I do about the colour the rose combe being part of the breed:

The Nankin, or Yellow Bantams, appear to have been among the earliest importations ; and, though now seldom considered as show birds, their clear plumage and active figure still procure for them many admirers. Their prevailing colour is the pale orange-yellow of the Nankeen (a corruption from Nankin), a cotton material formerly much in vogue for summer wear in this country, as also in India. The hen has usually some dark markings on the hackle (but the less the better), and the tail is often tipped with black ; while the male bird shows an intermixture of red and dark chestnut on the back nd wings, the tail being black and well arched. Both sexes have short dark legs, and a double comb. Many of these birds exhibit a strong resemblance to the corresponding colours of the Buff Shanghaes. While giving a preference to the rose comb in these birds, it is but just to the single-combed specimens, that the opinion of their's being the more correct form is not without advocates.

Mousy.

[nankin3]

Dave,
 I don't understand why you feel you were lamblasted when you come on the forum and asked for opinions which you recieved they may not have been what you wanted to hear but that unfortunatley happens sometimes. I have several breeds of OEGB and I would never cross them or any other birds into my Nankins because from that point foward they would be no more than a mutt in my opinion. I wish you luck with your project but I think this a project that has no merit in ensuring the future of the breed and that in my opinion is what it's all about in the end.
 Danny

[Rog]

  Ah It seems Mr Dave Cooper has disappered . Seems there are no more Chocolate Nankins discussions going on. Go tell. With that said I really think the Nankin breeders in the US and even in the UK need to address the color we need to breed for. Personaly I think we are close. What I would like to see is some of the original breeders post there ideas and comments. Yes there are different shades of yellow , orange and chestnut. Even sorrel. And buff. So why not simpley state that each color can run from light to dark. So lets get a discussion going with the US breeders of these birds. It needs to take place now. Other wise the Nankins will get lost again in history. Mary Ann has helped the Nankin breed more than any other club officer other than Mr Cable with his really good news letters. Just me.   Rog

[Falling Tree Farm]

Rog and others- I agree we need to work on a color standard/description for Nankins.  But I do think we need a vocabulary we can agree on first.  I posted the photos of my Nankins (elsewhere on this site) to show their coloring because I could not really describe them!  The hens are relatively easy-basically 3 colors -buff bodies, orangy buff hackles and black on wings and tail.  The cocks seem to defy my limited color vocabulary.  I come up with words like reddish, darkish, chestnuty-which hardly clarifies anything.  I think a start would be to use a photo of a generally accepted good colored cock and agree on the words we would use to describe it.  It should be the work of many eyes and minds. Howard

[Mary Ann Harley]

I don't know if the club members will ever come to an agreement on color & that is a shame.  Howard, some breeders are trying to get the hen to be all buff with the black in the tail.  I don't think that will ever happen.  When the female color is a consistent buff the undercolor is lost.  I say work to improve the type & color.  Rog, you may be right, we may have to say the males will range from light to dark.  When the Nankins are shown the judges have their own preference to color.  Sometimes they like the dark & sometimes the light.

Blinky

[nankin3]

 Although I am new to the Nankin compared to a lot of the members these little birds have grown to be my favorites but I am afraid if a good color standard is not worked out in the near future the Nankin is doomed to survive in the hands of a few dedicated breeders as it seemingly always has. So I believe it is imperative while the Nankin is currently thriving that we all work together to accomplish this. The birds are doing well now in this country do to the work for the most part of one generation of very dedicated breeders which is great but it also means  all that work could easily be lost again which would be a shame. Just my opinion but I believe getting a true color standard at this time is going to be very important to the survival of our birds in the future. Or we will end up with more people trying to add bizarre colors that are unneeded.
Danny

[northumbriabantams]

I haven't disapeared I unfortunately have been a bit unwell (crohns) and my time has been spent at work and with the 60 odd chicks, that have hatched in the last few weeks, 2 horses and 80 odd other breeding stock we have. I will post some pictures of our Nankins if someone can point me in the right direction please. We have a breeding two breeding groups of 3 & 5 and about 15 chicks that have just been hatched last month.

Regards
dave

[Falling Tree Farm]

Sorry you were under the weather.  I hope you are feeling better now.  Photobucket.com seems to work if you have a digital camera.  Howard

[nankin3]

 Dave: The only way I can get pictures from my camera to the site is through a photobucket account.
 Hope your feeling better.
Danny

[Lordcluck]

Mousy has hit the nail fairly on the head! ' Nankin ' was the name given to the generic little Yellow/ buff bantams of the countryside, and the term quite possibly is derived from ' Nankeen' cloth, a yellow cloth imported from China.
In poultry terms ' Nankin' is synonymous with the term buff, and is a term used to describe this colour in other breeds such as the Barbu D'Anvers and the Ko Shamo.
There could no more be another colour of Nankin, than there could be a non-laced Sebright, or a red faced Spanish!!!

[Mousy]

BTW, I do have follow up with some answers to some of my questions. The Nankins found on Mrs. Peters Farm in the 1960's where all single combs. The Rosecomb was recreated by Brian Sands.

Mousy.

[Mary Ann Harley]

That's correct the RC was created by Brian Sands.  My experience with my RC Nankins is that they are not as good layers as the SC's & they are less fertile.

I'am in Salisbury, NC to attend the Unifour Show.  There are 27 Nankins entered.  20 are mine & 7 belong to Dylan Sugiyana.

Blinky