Question about color

[Falling Tree Farm]

My Nankins are originally from Bob Hawes and his were from John Dempsey and his were imported from England.  Howard

[Rog]

   Mousy  I think this is what the standard says.   COLOR OF MALE AND FEMALE: COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR LOBES: BRIGHT RED.  EYES: REDDISH BAY.  BEAK: HORN, SHADING TO DARKER ON UPPER MANDIBLE.  SHANKS AND TOES:  BLUISH SLATE, WITH A PINKISH STRIPE ON THE OUTER SIDE OF SHANK.  UNDERCOLOR:  LIGHT, GOLDEN CHESTNUT.  PLUMAGE: REFER TO BLACK TAILED RED AS IN THE NANKIN COLOR DESCRIPTION.
This is all I could find so far on Black Tailed Red.  Black-tailed Red Old English Game Bantams should be the same color as a Rhode Island Red...a deep black cherry red with black tails. The red should be glossy.
  I don`t have a standard book so if somebody does you might look those up. Please.                          Howard   I got my birds from Jim Allan in Oklahoma. Jim got his original birds from John Dempsey But when his wife got sick he sold them back to him. A few years after Jim`s wife passed he bought some back from Bob Hawes. So I guess other than my sebright cross we have pretty much the same line of birds. Most of my cocks , both the rosecomb and singlecomb , are colored like the picture of your bird. A friend of mine was in Holland and talked with Jan Ubels. There are some pictures of Jans Nankins on Feathersite. Jan told CJR to use the darkest colored cocks, For what thats worth.   Rog

[Mousy]

Okay, questions, questions, questions.
Why has the USA standard grown up so differently to the UK standard. How did both these standards come about? Are their any other standards for Nankins worldwide? Is it a good thing or a bad thing that they differ?
UK calls for white or horn beak – USA Horn, shading to darker on upper mandible
UK eyes bright orange – USA Reddish Bay
Both match on comb, face, wattles and ear-lobes. Legs are similar only marginal variation is the UK says blue or bluish-white where USA just says bluish slate.
But the colour descriptions are very different. If you put together what you’ve described. Then for both females and males your looking for under colour of light, golden chestnut with plumage that is deep black cherry red with black tails. The red being glossy.
I’ve already posted the UK male colour standard for the female from the same source it says

Female plumage: Neck, back, wings, tail and saddle dark ginger-buff. Tail shading into black at the ends. Remainder of plumage light ginger-buff throughout to the skin.

I had a look at the colour standard for OEGB black/red and it has 2 forms described Partridge Bred and Wheaten Bred so which one would the USA standard be referring to? Or is it meaning The Ginger-Red(which has a black tail)?
Makes me wander how similar or different the rest of the standard is?

Mousy.

[Falling Tree Farm]

Rog and others-ABA standard-Black tailed Red as in Nankin Plumage(page 204/5)
Color of Male- Head: Deep Orange Red
Neck: Hackle-lustrous orange red, free from dark striping, to match saddle.  Front of Neck-medium chestrnut red.
Back: brilliant chestnut red   --Saddle; lustrous orange red;free from dark striping, to match hackle.
Tail; Main tale-Black with some sheen.  Sickles--lustrous black thin lacing of medium chestnut at point of feather which broadens out to the point of almost meeting at base of feather.  Lesser sickles-lustrous,greenish black, thinly laced with medium chestnut.
Coverts-lustrous black, laced with medium chestnut, shafts, chestnut.
Wings; Shoulders- brilliant chestnut red. Fronts-medium chestnut red, Bows- brilliant chestnut red. Coverts-medium chestnut red.
Primaries-light chestnut, with a black stripe extending along lower side of quill.  Primary coverts-black.  Secondaries- medium chestnut red, broad black stripe extending from base of feather on upperside of quill to about three quarters of its length, exposed portion of outer web forming wing bay, medium chestnut red.  Breast, Body, Stern and Lower Thighs: Light chestnut red.

[Rog]

   Thanks Howard.  That helped clarify the color some. As soon as the weather gets a little better I`ll see if I can get some pictures of my birds and post them. I think this is turning into a real informative disscusion. Lets keep it going. How about some of the other breeders that have had these birds a while joining in ?   Rog

[nankin3]

Mousy: If I am not mistaken there is a Dutch Standard for the Nankins that predates ours in the U.S. Mr.Dempsey and Mrs. Hering worked to get it interpeted and used it to partially form the U.S standards in the 60's. If I am wrong in this please someone correct me.

Howard: That is some very pretty birds you have I wish mine would stand for photos like that.

Rog/Howard: If I have not misread something in Mark Fields book on the Nankins are all of our birds not from the same lineage the Dempsey line? I know there was some mention of a lost line of them being here but no concrete evidence to back it up. If this is true would the differences we see in our birds today not be the result of the different out breedings that ocurred over the years? Or maybe I have just misread or got confused on some of the history here which is highly probable.

 Also I know it's hard to get really good pictures and the colors will appear somewhat different on the computer but could we start a thread maybe to post pic's of the birds we feel are closest to the standard kinda of a online show to see how close or far away everyone is from everyone else especially our neighbors across the pond if anyone is game for it I will try post some this week.

[Falling Tree Farm]

It is my understanding that the Dempsey import was the only one.  One hears about the possibility of another import but no evidence seems available to back that claim up. This is what Bob Hawes recently told me.  Howard

[Mousy]

I have to say I don’t know the origins of the UK standard or when the present one was written. Perhaps LordCluck can help out.

And I’ve not managed to get hold of a copy of Mark Fields book yet. Out of interest do we know what the Dutch Standard says where it came from and who old it is?
DAD-IS List and unknown state in Ireland, List them as extinct in the USA.
2002 date for the UK lists population 50-100 with 50 breeding females.
2003 for the USA it lists >0. The netherlands doesn’t feature for the breed.
It is surprising that the Dutch standard was choosen? What is the history of the breed in the The Netherlands? I’d kind of thought that as it’s had been in the UK since the 16th centenary I’d assumed that standards would orginate form the Uk, seems I was wrong.
Wouldn’ t it be interesting to get pictures of birds from different countries and then mix them up a bit and then compare them to each countries standard. It would be very telling if it turned out that the birds came from the countries who’s standard they most closely match.

So it's likely that all USA birds come from one import? Does anyone know what the number of founders there are in your breeding population.

Mousy.

PS Rog is right this is a fascinating conversation, I'm learning loads.

[Falling Tree Farm]

There certainly were Nankins in the USA in 2003, Bob Hawes had them.  Possibly some others as well.  But their numbers did not really increase until 2 or 3 years later.  Howard

[Mousy]

It's quite possible that small hobbiest figures weren't taken into account. If there wasn't an official body representing them.

In case your interested:
http://dad.fao.org/

Mousy.

[Falling Tree Farm]

Thanks Mousy-interesting site.  Howard

[WoodyMcGehee]

Thought I would pass along some of the latest shots of these birds.

[WoodyMcGehee]

The one rooster is obviously too light.  The second one is very hen colored.

[franciscreek]

Woody,

 is there blue in the lobes on the hen in the second picture from the top? I recently aquired two groups of birds from different breeders. The trio has blue in the lobes on all three birds. The quad group does not have any blue about the head. Curious what other people have. There is no mention of blue that I can find in the standard.

Richard

[Falling Tree Farm]

The Nankins earlobes should be red.  Some white in the lobes is a fairly common fault, but we should try to breed it out.  Howard