Black/Chocolate Nankins

[Mousy]

Hi Danny,

I've posted the 2 references I have. So you think that these refer to just the colour rather than True Nankins?

I was thinking that it might make sense them being around New York because of the imagration influx and I would have thought livestock would be coming in as well as people?

However my knowledge of American history is very, very shaky.

Thanks,
Mousy.

[Lordcluck]

 Whether for monetary gain or just curiosity, introducing new colours into breeds has reached new heights in the 21st century here in the UK. Orpingtons, Wyandottes, Pekins etc seem to have a new colour developed in them every five minutes!
many years ago, when bantams were grouped largely in colours, and breeds were few, the Nankin was THE yellow bantam, no other colour was recognised, and it was found in single and rose combed forms.
The term ' Bantam' referred only to what we know today as the Rosecomb bantam, a close relative of the Nankin. the Sebright was an almagamation of Poland, Nankin, Hen-feathered Hamburgh-type fowl and Rosecomb blood, Game bantams were a mongrel mix of all manner of breeds and regional dwarf fowl types, but owed very little indeed to true Game blood.
Turning to the Nankin, this breed, along with the Rosecomb, was THE prototype True Bantam, blue shanked,always yellow in colour, with a proud and strutting bearing, and it  remained this way, by and large for centuries, with relatively little influence from any other breed. It has never been highly bred for the show pen, and was a ' Natural' type, free from exaggeration and fancy points. Personally I believe this is what we should be concentrating on in the breeding of our Nankins today,and it should be preserved as such, as a historical icon of a breed.
Ok, during the breed's 'lost' period, no-one can be sure exactly what happened to the remaining stocks, and it's likely that other breeds may have had an influence on the isolated, and no doubt dangerously inbred bloodlines, and this quite probably saved the Nankin from total extinction.
However,the legacy of this was an increase in size, loss of type, mis-coloured shanks/lobes, and a reversion to the single comb variety only.
Andrew Sheppey recreated the rose combed Nankin by outcrossing to the related Rosecomb bantam, and most breeders worldwide are striving to reduce size, improve type and retain sound colour of feather, shank and lobe.
In the States, bantam Game blood has been used to try and achieve the same result.
IMHO, leaving the historical, Iconic issue to one side,even if I agreed with the creation of ' chocolate' or 'black' Nankins, I dont believe the breed has reached a level of homogeneity to be tampering with ' New' colours! there are still too many variations in type, size , colour and feather quality to be conducting colour experiments on them.

[Mary Ann Harley]

The Nankin never was anything but the color that we have now.  In order to breed them different colors you would have to outcross with another breed.  Then what you have is a MUTT, not a true Nankin.  It might be the flavor of the month & you might make some money out of it & good luck with that. I strive to distribute my stock to serious breeders that want to increase & save the breed.  If anyone wanted to use my stock for experimentation I would not let them within a 100 miles of my birds.  We, in the US, are having enough problems with getting them right & there is no room for experiments or people that just want the flavor of the month.

Blinky

[Lordcluck]

Establishing the fact that Nankins are not an appropriate subject for the development of new colours, that doesnt mean to say this is the case in other breeds.
The fact that one often has to outcross to another breed to acquire a new colour, isnt necessarily a problem. As you say Mary Ann, this first cross creates a ' mutt' a mongrel, but in skilled hands the undesirable evidence of this cross-breeding, can be bred out within a few generations.

UK Nankins are often oversized, and apart from the careful selection of fit and healthy smaller birds, to breed from, later hatching and breeding from pullets, i dont see it as wrong to try and scale down our birds by introducing blood from other breeds. I have often wondered if the inclusion of ( long-legged) black-tailed buff Japanese or Serama blood may have some beneficial effect on our bloodlines. The biggest problem I envisage with these crosses, is the introduction of yellow shanks, and we already see plenty of yellow/willow legged ' Nankins' here as it is. I'm not advocating cross-breeding willy-nilly, but the introduction of features from other varieties may be advantageous to the breed.

[Mousy]

UK Nankins are often oversized, and apart from the careful selection of fit and healthy smaller birds, to breed from, later hatching and breeding from pullets, i dont see it as wrong to try and scale down our birds by introducing blood from other breeds.

Okay, I fully except that my Nankins are oversized for the standard the birds I currently have in the females range from 1143g-1002g (40.2oz-35.3oz) in the Cocks and 972g-695g (34.2oz- 24.5oz) in the Hens. But I plan to reduce them by selective breeding of Nankins rather than crossing. This route may take me longer, but I think long term is better for the breed than short term crossing with another breed which would get me there quicker but the problem is don't know what other genetics you can't see you've introduced.
Possibly I'm more resistant to crossing with other breeds because my breeding experience comes from dogs where crossing breeds in a pure breed is a method of last resort. I think in my life time The Kennel Club has only granted permission for this 2 or 3 times.

However, one thing that bothers me about reducing size, is how do you do with without risking the utility aspects of the birds?

I.e. Egg flavour, Eggs Size, Quantity of Eggs, Broodiness, Table aspects of the bird etc.

Mousy.

[Lordcluck]

Mousy, I dont think you need to be too concerned about the loss of the qualities you list. Nankins have never made any great claims to be ' useful' utility fowl, and although our UK stocks do have a tendency to be over-sized, we're not looking at such a massive reduction of size to challenge the birds current capabilities.

if we take an average true bantam size from breeds such as the Rosecomb, Sebright and the Dutch, three breeds that bear a resemblence to Nankins in terms of type and posessing the size we are aiming for, we find that these breeds still give a reasonable account of themselves as layers for  'toy' varieties, and although Nankins are regularly referred to as sitters, given their size, i doubt they would ever be of great use as broodies.

 Egg flavour is not something I know much about, but wouldnt this be as much a factor of nurture rather than nature? A good varied and natural diet must go some way to creating that 'traditional' free-range taste??
I certainly can't imagine a Nankin has ever have been or will be a worthwhile table fowl subject. Surplus males might be used up in the curry pot, but as sunday Roasters they wouldnt be in the running!!

I can understand your reticence over cross breeding to achieve your aims from a dog breeders point of view, but it's been common practice in the poultry fancy since the concept of a chicken being of a ' breed' was conceived. Even today, breeders are improving or creating new colours within breeds by the inclusion of different breeds that carry a desired feature into their chosen variety.
Most breeds are composites of a number of varieties as it is, and with poultry being far more easily and quickly reproduced than dogs, and in far greater numbers, which provides a larger choice of genetic permutations to select from, results can be achieved far more quickly.

 As an example,I recall talking to a fancier friend at the PCGB National show in the early nineties, who took show champion with a spectacular white cochin cock. After all the applause, trophies, rosettes and congratulations, he led me to the Brahma classes ,( his first breed ) , and showed me his champion Non standard, Large White male, that was half brother to the Cochin show champ!!

Mousy youre right! it was Brian Sands that recreated the rose combed Nankin, not Andrew sheppey! D'OH!! don't tell them i got them mixed up!!!